Liquid Oxygen vs Concentrators.. A Difference?

[valerie]

I usually have liquid oxygen 24/7 but because my portable liquid is loosing I have had to use concentrated oxygen from the electrical source. I think I don't feel the same with the concentrated air supply, like tireder, less energy maybe and a headache from the continual sound of the machine, which one doesn't get with the liquid oxygen. But apart from these set backs I'm wondering now if there is a real difference between liquid oxygen and concentrated oxygen, could it be that as the concentrated oxygen is made from the air around us it's not so pure as the liquid oxygen, I'd appreciate some scientific if not technical help on this one.

[John]

Valerie . I don't have any help for you . I just wanted to say . How is everything in Spain ?

[sandy07]

I'm not an expert, just a user of a machine, but different machines make different concentrations. Some smaller machines will do 80% with bigger ones giving 90 or more. I'm not sure what liquid gives you. Whether that would effect how we're feeling tho I don't know.
Maybe someone else can help with that.

The noise from the machine can be fixed by moving it to a different room. My machine is in a room we don't use much. The hose is long enough for me to reach all ends of the house. I can't hear it at all. Some concentrators are quieter than others tho.

[sandy07]

I just had another thought. I'm wondering if your headache is from the sound of the machine or because you're not getting enough oxygen when you're asleep. Is the headache in the morning? We breath a lot shallower when we sleep. Because the concentration may be lower you might need to turn it up. If it's set at 2 maybe turn it to 3. All you can do is try it and see if it helps.

[susanny]

Hi Valerie. Sorry, but I've never had liquid O2. I have the concentrator in a room that's seldom used, too, my computer room actually where I nebulize. I've gotten used to the noise and don't th ink it's that loud anymore. At night I close the door to my bedroom and don't hear the concentrator at all.

I don't know why it should be giving you a headache. Hopefully someone will look and try and find the answers you need.

Good luck and hope you feel better, Sue

[valerie]

Thank you all for answering, but I was really more concerned about the oxygen given for example, is the concentrated oxygen less pure than the liquid oxygen? I suppose there is no real difference after all. I'm ok now, no headache and I will be supplied with a new portable for liquid oxygen soon I hope (which I use all day).

[Blossom/Jackie W.]

Val...... I'm gonna contact a couple of people who I "think may be" or "were" on liquid 02 if you agree, Also; if you're o.K. with it...... I'd like to change your subject to "Liquid Oxygen Question" or something. Let me know please.

[shelley]

There is actually quite a difference between the two. When you are using liquid, you are using 100% oxygen. Concentrators, on the other hand are calibrated to deliver around 94%; in fact, mine which is a high flow, is only testing out at 91%. I feel a significant difference between the two and my saturations levels and heartrate show it. I absolutely detest "oxygen days"; the ones when I put my reservoirs on the porch and run on the concentrator all day. In fact, my husband fills all 6 of my portables, so I will have to use the least amount off the concentrator. However, from the oxygen providers standpoint, it is far more expensive for them for you to be using liquid only and frankly, they don't really understand that there is a difference. I have an absolutely fabulous oxygen provider and they really bend over backwards to ensure I have all I need in order to be ambulatory but, even they would not be thrilled with me using liquid only. You are quite right though...there is every reason to believe that you do feel differently between the two and I think, that there are many of us that do.

[valerie]

Well, you have really confirmed what I've been experiencing Shelley, I usually use 2lpm but on liquid I seem to do well on 1 and half lpm, and my heart rate is lower too. I have always used liquid oxygen but in the small portable with breathe on demand and all day in house as well, that way I use less liquid oxygen and need only one delivery a week. But the little portable started leaking oxygen so until they give me a replacement I'm using my sequal eclipse concentrator and liquid continuous flow at night. I really noticed the difference between all day liquid and all day concentrated. Thanks Shelley. Dear Jackie, I'm ok with anything you want to do, if you think you will get some feed back it would be a good topic.

[wendyco]

Valerie, just to confuse you more I use liquid and the doc's insisted I have liquid. They started this after I had my TTO in 06, but once I had to go back to the cannula, they still insist on liquid. it's purer and I can feel the difference too

[valerie]

This is reassuring to know, but it's unfortunate that liquid is the most expensive type of oxygen because of frequent deliveries etc, but I was reading on the web a few days ago that now one of the big oxygen companies onics/phillips is now making a unit by which one can produce liquid oxygen at home in a big reservoir The liquid oxygen can be used direct from the reservoir or by filling up a portable from it. It sounds good and would stop all the deliveries. Thanks to all.

[valerie]

This is reassuring to know, but it's unfortunate that liquid is the most expensive type of oxygen because of frequent deliveries etc, but I was reading on the web a few days ago that now one of the big oxygen companies onics/phillips is now making a unit by which one can produce liquid oxygen at home in a big reservoir The liquid oxygen can be used direct from the reservoir or by filling up a portable from it. It sounds good and would stop all the deliveries. Thanks to all.

[susanny]

VAlerie, you wouldn't happen to be able to find the link for this information would you?j I'd like to read it myself, sounds good.

[chrisw]

Note that this is still concentrator technology so at best is about 94% pure oxygen and not the 99.9% pure oxygen delivered by your supplier as liquid or compressed gas.

You tube videos



Website www.healthcare.philips.com/main/homehealth/respiratory_care/homelox/default.wpd

Brochure
www.healthcare.philips.com/asset.aspx?alt=&p=http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_hc/main/homehealth/respiratory_care/homelox/pdf/homelox_brochure.pdf

and finally - er sorry - not yet available in Canada to the best of my knowledge

[susanny]

Thanks Chris, I now have a lot more q's about lO2. As for the links, they are for the business side of the product, for companies that will provide the equipment. Here is a link for the consumer to get ahold of some help:

www.healthcare.philips.com/main/homehealth/consumers/index.wpd

One of my q's is about the length of time you get on the portable unit of LO2. For example, this product is sold in a portable and says it weighs 4 lbs and provides 10 hrs. of O2 at 2lpm. Is that comparable to what the users of liquid O2 get with your current equipment? I am using at 3lpm currently , so how long do you think I'd get from it? Also, do they come with pulse, too? I personallly do not like pulse, at least not from the cannister.

Also, do you have to carry the unit around on you all the time or is there a long tubing like with the electric concentrator for while at home?

I just want to breathe better and am wondering if this is the way to go, and if I can even get it from my dr and/or the provider.

Thanks everyone!

[valerie]

There aare two or three companies who make liquid oxygen portables, and it seems that Helios and Caire are the most used. My oxygen supplier deals with Caire and delivers me a 30k tank of liquid oxygen every week. I sleep with it at night on continuous flow, but all day long I use a portable which I fill up from the big tank. Mine a Spirit 300 weighs about 4lbs, but I still put it in a trolley for easy using. There are no oxygen tubes only the short anuula to the nose. It lasts 7-8 hours on 2 lpm. The difference about the new system from Phillips/Respironics is that one could make the liquid oxygen at home, so would not have to depend of deliveries of tanks of Lo2. This seems very new still and depends on the oxygen contractors buying it to distribute. There is also a system that refills compressed oxygen cylinders from an electrical concentrator. But unfortunately it can't be used as a normal concentrator, but only for filling up small cylinders.
Here they are still delivering liquid oxygen but are trying to get everyone on electric concentrators with electrical portables like Inogen one. I have always understood that the electric portables that are pulse flow only are NOT for sleeping with that's why i bought a Sequal eclipse for when I go on holiday, as being bigger it has up to 3 lpm continuous flow too.

[chrisw]

Valerie,

I usually have liquid oxygen 24/7 but because my portable liquid is loosing

Well DUH! me - have you considered asking your supplier to repair or recondition your portable?

[valerie]

No, I asked them for a replacement which they boughtme today but I had fears that they would not give me a replacement as they contract for the state National Health and they want to get rid of the liquid oxygen when they can ie, no more liquid portables left. Less costly for them. However they got me one from another province today so I've been saved.... for now, that's why if I have my own next time the state one goes wrong I'll have my backup one (my own) and I won't even report the fault on theirs as I don't want them to take me off liquid oxygen. I get frantic when I think that one day I'll have to have an electric concentrator with that noise all day long. I shall buy one now at ease and even try to get a reconditioned one too, and a bigger one like the Spirit 600. All oxygen is supplied by the national health service in Spain and the portables too, they now issue Inogen one to people who have the big electric concentrators, and are gradually getting people off the liquid.

[chrisw]

Valerie - about liquid portables: The Helios portables are now made by Caire (as is the Sequal Eclipse portable oxygen concentrator. There are a few other ones. The best, in terms of keeping people oxygenated, the the Smart Dose - see (note that this company also makes conservers for cylinders - but does not sell to Canada ). The Philips/Respironics GoLox portable is also available for normal liquid oxygen base tanks. The Helios does not give as much O2 as the Caire Spirit, There is also an Easy-Mate LOX portable. For more information go to www.portableoxygen.org/liquido2.html - this is an excellent website with all sorts of GOOD information about oxygen, unfortunately it is not being very well kept up to date.

Sue - the Philips/Respironics HomeLox system is only able to fill portables, it does not have any way to connect tubing for continuous O2 as far as I know.

The portables hold a fixed amount of oxygen and therefore, as with all portables the bigger the setting the shorter the unit will last (10 hours at a setting of 2 or say 5 hours at a setting of 4) note that these are "setting" not "L/min" while many people think of them as the same they are not, just some manufacturers idea of "about the same" and remember if you breathe twice as fast with a conserver then you will use twice as much oxygen.

Oh! and by the way - the new concentrators are much quieter that that old ones - my old Respironics Millenium concentrator died last week and now I have a new one that is really pretty quiet.

[valerie]

Thanks for all this info Chris, and pleased that the big concentrators are much quieter now. By the way do you still use a Spirit 300 or if that any liquid oxygen, or have you completely gone over to concentrator. I had been reading the portable oxygen web site you mentioned and it's very informative for sure. I have to stick to Caire liquid portables as the state supplier only deliver me a Caire Liberator main tank. Thanks a lot.

[imelda]

Hi everyone, I just wanted to say that I too am in liquid oxygen 24/7 and on 3L since 2006.
when I started using oxygen I tried the concentrator first, and not only do I hate it but I felt the difference in the way that it would dry the inside of my nose causing it to bleed everyday, even having the humidifier on, headaches, and it also caused my blood pressure to go up and my heart rate as well, and I would also catch myself breathing hard like if I had ran, and I mentioned this to my sister cus she is a nurse and has a child in liquid oxygen, so she is the one that told me the difference between the two, she told me liquid is 99.9% pure and the other one is between 90% and 95% oxygen but not pure oxygen. what it does is it filters the air that is in your surroundings to oxygen, it's as easy as this ,DO YOU WANT FILTERED WATER OR NONFILTERED WATER?
so I changed to liquid and believe me, my God what a difference,...
no more headaches, nose bleeds, high blood pressure and fast heart beats but what I really do not miss is the super high electric bill all my check would go to the electric company.
with the liquid they fill up every weak and when I have a Dr's appointment I fill up my own Helios and usually last around 2 to 3hrs depending on my breathing cus it's on demand but I could switch it to continua's and also in the Hospitals they use this humidifier water called AQUA-PAK/HUDSON RCI ref#005-01 540ml *+H88000501.* this is everything I saw in the bottle. I use them at home my oxygen provider got them for me and these are better then using water they make my nose feel better not so dry and no bleeding. honestly I feel better with liquid then with the other. If there was no difference they would not have made it.
My provider told me today that they are planning to do without liquid, just because they don't want to be visiting patients every weak or so, filling up their liquid tanks, what makes me mad is that they are not thinking about our health they have tried to convince me to switch to the other one that I don't like, I don't know what to do I would need to do some home work and find another provider.
Hope everything I said is some what of a help for you all. Thanks

P.S. I FORGOT TO MENTION THE ELECTRIC OXYGEN CONSENTRATOR I WAS USEING SMELLED LIKE CIGGARS AND THRU THE CANNULA, SO NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY CLEAN IT YOU STILL SMELL THE OTHER PERSON THAT USED IT BEFORE YOU.

[LowFlow]

I'm in manitoba, and my concentrator is a Respironics ' Everflo ' , which my tech guys says puts out 96% pure O2. My portables are M9 liquid O2 tanks and give 98% pure O2.

My tech guy tells me the Respironics concentrators are the quietest, and you can lessen the stress from the noise by putting it in a room away from where you spend most of your time. I use a curtained bedroom for mine, and its barely audible from my bedroom.

[irvkay312]

I was prescribed O2 for sleep and after requesting change from concentrator to liquid oxygen have been sleeping better and longer.

[mike uk]

Liquid oxygen [LOX] is 100 per cent pure as it is removed from the atmosphere by FREEZING the air [LIQUIFACTION]

Liquefaction In materials science, liquefaction is a process that generates a liquid from a solid or a gas or that generates a non-liquid phase which behaves in accordance with fluid dynamics. It occurs both naturally and artificially. As an example of the latter, a "major commercial application of liquefaction is the liquefaction of air to allow separation of the constituents, such as oxygen, nitrogen, and the noble gases." Another is the conversion of solid coal into a liquid form usable as a substitute for liquid fuels.

Each of the many gases in the air [approx. ] freeze at different temperatures and can be separated [syphoned off] as the temperature gets lower into a separate pure liquid gas ….. therefore oxygen will remain pure in liquid form whilst temperature keeps it as a liquid.... as it warms the liquid evaporates and expands producing a much larger volume of pure oxygen gas. Pressurised bottles are filled using this method therefore bottled oxygen is also at least 99 per cent pure and safe to inhale as the 1 percent can only be normal air mixture from when the bottle the was refilled and therefore harmless to COPD sufferers.

Whereas an electrical/battery concentrator cannot extract any oxygen from the air ….. it merely removes the NITROGEN leaving ALL other gasses highly concentrated including the harmful GREENHOUSE GASSES giving users on these concentrators high levels of CO2 and RETENTION in the blood preventing enough oxygen from reaching the brain and organs ….. low oxygen levels in the blood cause hypoxia and possible brain cell loss leading to dementia if not spotted and corrected quickly. Not only that the flow rate of this lethal mixture must be increased to compensate the effect of the CO2 blocked blood cells that cannot be removed by the damaged lungs easily. An ABG blood test must be made regularly to check for CO2 retention to prevent CO2 from concentrators building up. Global warming is our enemy and CO2 is the problem n the air already so why inhale huge quantities from these machines when LOX has always been safe to inhale once it becomes a gas of course so please do not try drinking liquid oxygen.

The Swedish research teams have proved that mortality rate is greatly REDUCED by COPD sufferers using pure oxygen rather than concentrators which cannot provide pure oxygen but are cheap to supply. Long term oxygen therapy cannot be administered by machines. Oxygen is a prescribed medication and is a serious issue. Pure oxygen from LOX is used in all NHS Hospitals in the UK and Paramedics use the bottles. The providers of Oxygen supply concentrators as a cheap alternative to the long term need of a patient based on cost only and not medical needs or lung condition.

"Oxygen concentrator" is a fraudulent name as shown above. Either FAKE Oxygen concentrators or concentrated air is a more accurate and factually correct description of a concentrator.

[mrsmaverick]

I just happened upon your post while searching for info on LOX vs O2 Concentrators. I was tired of tripping over 50 feet of plastic tubing that connected from my husband's concentrator to wherever in our house. I just happened to ask our DME provider's delivery guy if there was an alternative and he suggested a 100 lb. refillable liquid oxygen base and a O2 portable unit.

I am a 24/7 caregiver to my terminally ill, 61 yr old husband who is in home hospice. He suffers from comorbidities but in this post I am focusing on his Acute Respiratory Failure with Hypoxia/Hypercapnia diagnosis. Your post inspired me to research the difference between the two "air" providers. I cannot find the Swedish study you referred to that proved the reduction in mortality rates of COPD sufferers using pure O2. I would love a reference to that study please.
What I did discover though was two fold. First, that you are right about the concentrators not producing "oxygen" but rather a mixture of combined and concentrated gasses sans nitrogen.

In the US, DME providers are not concerned with the degradation and or impurity of the "air" manufactured by their concentrators - it's all about sales and rentals and government/private health insurance costs. Technicians, RTs, medical doctors, DME providers all ignore the elephant in the room and go to great lengths to evade the subject. To be fair, I believe that most are simply as ignorant as I once was as to the "purity" of manufactured/compressed air. Although some will blatantly lie about the concentrator's producing 99.9% oxygen purity - fully aware that the patient and their family are trusting and will not go to the lengths I have to research the subject.

Secondly, we live at 7,700 feet above sea level. The majority of highly rated concentrators have an Altitude Restriction between 5,000-6,000 feet above sea level. So along with the "fake" concentrator air, the machine is only producing 90% or less oxygen mixture.

I wanted to thank you for your post because today my husband is breathing Liquid Oxygen 24/7 and after only 2 days he is experiencing noticeable improvements.