Pulse Regulator Problems???

[jarca]

I use a fanny pack with C tank when i go anywhere or work outdoors.
My 02 company furnishes me with a "pulse regulator" to conserve my 02.
They have 2 different brands they use & both have given me the same problem.
It will work fine for awhile (sometimes year, sometimes months) but then will suddenly just start pulsing air as fast as it can.

I had another one go out on me yesterday (luckily they always keep me with 2 just in case)---it was working fine; i came in & changed my tank, turned it on & it just started pulsing out air as fast as it could possibly go.

As i said 2 different brands have done this & it has happened back when i only needed 2LPM so it doesn't seem to matter what LPM i use.
The company told me a couple years ago that in winter the valve inside froze & that's what made them break, but now i'm using it in nice weather,
there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason when they go out.

(in fact my supplier just said they got a whole shipment of bad ones----as happened back in 2014 or 2015; i went to supplier to exchange a bad 1 and as we tried them they were all bad until we finally found one that worked)

I asked her if other people had this problem & she said 'rarely'---but then followed up that she only has a few people that use the pulse regulators.
 when i asked what do they use, she said continuous flow because most of her customers never go out.
so,,,,,i'm looking for answers here
am i doing something wrong, or is this common for these things to just start pulsing at will?

[John]

Can't help I use only contueiouse I don't breath deep enough for pluse

[skate4life]

www.pulmonarypaper.org/january-february-2018/
If your new membership is working, you should be able to read what Ryan has to say:

Ryan's hints about .regulators/conserving regulators - mid left column. pg 15.

If you can't get link to work; email him but it may take a bit to get a response.....
[e-mail].

[jarca]

skate; it took me a bit to figure out how to read the newsletter (duh, turn the page arrows) but i read the post you mentioned & he kind of just gave information about the conservative regulators, not really how to use them (if i'm doing something wrong) or troubleshooting why it would just start pulsing like crazy....thanks for the suggestion though.

frustrating because i want to go out & finish working but don't want to 'break' another regulator ---even though there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why they go out when they do. 
i'd just like to know if i'm turning it on, off or something wrong that is me causing the problem; but the lady that delivered them didn't know any more about 'proper use' than i do. (also where she said she doesn't have many people that use them so she didn't know if others had as many problems as i do- weird)
perhaps they just 'go out' from wear & it's nothing i'm doing wrong---just curious if anyone else that uses them may know why it would do this.

i found the manuals on them & the green kind it says to turn off of pulse & wait 15 sec before going to continuous flow or it will cause the problem----however i don't usually use continuous flow so don't think that is it----funny, it seems if it's wrong to go from pulse to continuous flow (CF) they'd put CF first & then the pulse settings, but they don't.

the black model it says it can start pulsing & to turn it off for 15 minutes & restart-----tried that and no 'self fixing' there.
the people that work at my 02 supply seem to have 'limited' information on the products they bring me---but i guess they carry so many things that they are can't be expected to know how every product works.....maybe i'll check to see if there is a way to 'contact' the manufacturer & see if they can give me more information.

i'm wondering if the oxymizer cannula may be better for me; but when the supplier says they have "1 on the shelf thats been there a long time'' it makes me wonder how people go out & do things around here.....unless POC have become that popular, but i'd worry more about breaking those out on the & things i do that these regulators.----very frustrated, not knowing & not able to get help from supply people, sure feels puzzlesome. 
ah well, i guess they can just keep replacing if i have them go out as they've done for 8 years now

if anyone comes up with any ideas let me know --- i'm open to suggestions on how  i might work it better & if its me or the product  

[skate4life]

I suggested seeing Ryan's comment because he mentioned checking the condition of the washer and cylinder yoke condition. I periodically have massive tank leak from my D tank when turning on regulator. I'll try turning it on twice and problem persists, I try another regulator. Sometimes that works, sometimes not. Ironically the 1st regulator will work just fine on another tank. So whether it is the regulator or the yoke I can't always decide. But if 2 different regulators cause leak, I knows it is the tank/yoke. Sometimes I know it is the regulator if it causes a leak on 2 different cylinders....I have 4-5 regulators available. Also, sometimes if I lean a little bit on the regulartor at the dial end, it will leak. If I can't remove and reattach to stop the leak, I go to another regulator.

I'm sure you have already tested your tank with a traditional regulator in your attempt at diagnosis. Just sharing my experience. If so many of your suppliers items test poorly, then one wonders how they are stored or treated (like thrown in a box, exposed to dust, etc.) and he should be contacting his supplier (manufacturer technician) to send someone, like a regional rep, to diagnose the problem. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful - beyond my pay grade Good luck.

[joany]

I don't know about the specific equipment you are referencing.  However I use the small portable tanks which "frequently" leaked." i..e. enough to be annoying and anxiety provoking.   I reported this to the tank delivery person (over several months) and his reaction was "no big deal";  he'll bring a substitute tank.  I wasn't comfortable with this solution.  Anyhow, I heard somewhere about tank washers.  I located a company that carried oxygen tank washers which should fit my portable tanks.  (The existing washer had an item number, but I couldn't find the exact item, but I did find the same size and material. ) Now when there's a leak I replace the washer (I bought a small bag of them) and this has addressed most of the leaking problem. 

[jarca]

skate & joany i appreciate the input & suggestions-----the washers are 1 of my 1st thoughts (now) ----when they brought me a new regulator it has a 'different' (brown) washer---the washers they bring me now days are black & VERY cheaply made.
It seems like the ones they bring me last a long time, but once i change to the black ones I have to change it with each tank change. 
I asked 2 of my delivery people about the washer & they told me that couldn't be the problem.( my thought was if the black washers they bring me are so great, why do they use different ones)

but when i ask about anything, i get the reaction that joany mentioned;

I reported this to the tank delivery person (over several months) and his reaction was "no big deal";

I guess if they don't care I shouldn't & They do bring me new regulators, but it is frustrating that no one at the company seems to care or even try to find why it's happening----i've now read the manuals & I'm doing as the manuals say.
The regulator never breaks when i'm using it, it does it when i turn it on....it can even be a tank i've been using that i've turned off & then POW when i turn it on it does the puff uncontrollably.

One thing i didn't always do was turn BOTH the tank & the regulator off when not in use; i'd just turn the tank off & on & leave my regulator set where i use it---i'm wondering if maybe that sudden blast of air when i open the valve hits whatever makes the pulse thing pulse & breaks it???
a theory i'm trying

I have 4-5 regulators available.

I have 2 regulators so i think i will ask them for a 3rd, just to have one to take if i leave the house. When weather is nice, I go out a lot so i want to make sure I'm not stuck somewhere even home on a weekend with regulators that don't work! 

I used to love lincare, but when there is a problem they don't seem to have people that help...they just replace things.
It reminds me back in 2014 or 2015 they went to the 'invacare perfecto 2"---same problem, it would run at home, but if i turned it off  to go somewhere, several times I'd come home & it wouldn't start up again! (i had an invacare old model that worked great for 4 or 5 years, then the company wanted me to have 'the new one"---what a nightmare! I think i went thru about 8 of those things before i finally agreed to try the respironics that i have now.....at least one of my delivery people told me they were having problems with everybody using them so i knew it wasn't 'just me'---but i got soooo frustrated, like i am now; maybe i'm weird, but when i put my 02 on, i want/need it to work!

anyway, i appreciate all the suggestions---i'll try the turning both tank & regulator off; then turn tank on 1st and then turn my regulator on & see if that works.

still open to suggestions, but i'll let you know if this 'new' way to turn on works

[skate4life]

Yes Jarca, you should turn your flow down to zero, then turn the tank off, then turn the flow meter back up to bleed the pressure from the regulator and when the pressure gauge reads zero, turn the flow meter back down to zero. It may be that not bleeding the pressure from the regulator is part of the problem.

[gnott]

A bit late to the party ...

The two most common reasons for pulsing to stop and oxygen to flow continuously are:

1) As noted, Not turning the valves in the correct order:

     a) ON   Tank On, then conserver (on low then increase)

     b) OFF  Conserver off, then tank.

Not using this rotation can cause increased wear and is a tad more dangerous.

2) A clogged vent:

   This often goes unnoticed because most don't even know it is there. Usually found on the bottom of the cylinder part of the Conservator, but location depends on brand. It is an active participant in the "pulsing mechanism".

When you get a chance go looking for it. It is tiny and easily clogged or covered.

This is often a problem for people who are active gardeners by handling the conserver with dirty hands.

So the obvious ... Never handle a conserver with dirty hands. Never carry the tank around using the conserver as a handle. Never clean with chemicals or a linty cloth or tissue. (Is "linty" a word? Smile). Use a plain damp cloth or micro cloth.

If it is clogged don't try and poke it out, use suction.

HTH

[gnott]

I should add that as far as I know no one has been successful in unclogging a vent once it has been blocked by material sucked in. (Smile) However, that may explain why you never noticed until you changed tanks? The process somehow sucked the material in farther or tighter???

Also I would like to defend the hapless Medical Provider personnel. They often don't know much about the inter-workings of the equipment they provide because they are not expected to and seldom trained in any kind of repair. For two major reasons

1) Not their job in the eye of their supervisors and there is seldom anything they can do even if they knew. Most regulators and Conservers (and Compressors) come with "no touch" warranties. They fiddle with it and they own it.

2) Also although seldom spoke aloud, they are bonded for specific activities and servicing, and risk serious consequences if they overstep.  This also goes for anything they say. You might remember Sergeant Hans Schultz from Hogan's Heroes: The best policy is "I know nothing!"

[jarca]

that's good info gnott.
i never noticed those holes & if i noticed them didn't know what they were for.

interesting not supposed to get dirty since the whole reason i chose tanks vs POC years ago was because i work out in my muddy dirty watering field & work in my 'sand/gravel' yards.
no one ever told me dirt would kill the things.

I was told when i went thru a bunch one winter that freezing weather can cause the valve inside the to break & that figured out why i went thru so many in the winter.

So far oxymizer cannula is problematic for me when nurse came to test----or lincares equipment is problematic when one starts needing higher doses of 02; especially being in that in between stage; still considered 'low flow' but on the border of 'hi flow"

[gnott]

jarca

On freezing temperatures I have little experience. I live in a semi-southern region where 40 degrees Fahrenheit is considered Arctic conditions and no one goes outside. (Smile)

But it wouldn't surprise me that freezing temperatures would be a problem. If you check the specifications for Regulators and Conservers; for those that provide an "Operating Temperature" it is always something like "0 to 40 Celsius" (32 to 104 Fahrenheit).

I am no expert but outside of industrial equipment I not aware of any "household" respirators or conservers specifications that are below freezing.

I'm not sure exactly how Pulse Conservers work. Little information is out there, probably because it is such a competitive business. I beat one apart once (A Pulse5). I was surprise at how simple it was, yet complex at the same time with very intricate manifolds. I will not for one minute suggest I understood it all, but it did appear that it worked using a rocker-like mechanism. A close analogy is one of those glass bird toys you see that perpetually bob into a glass of water. A small valve blocks flow until a certain amount of pressure is built up or a partial vacuum is detected (breath). BUT there was obvious a lot more going on. They use the Oxygen pressure from the tank as the motive force, so it not only controls pulse, it also self-adjusts the whole mechanism to deliver the same amount as the pressure drops in the tank.

Not sure how accurate my summary is, but I personally learned two things: One I am very impressed that the d**n things even work, and second I would never have made a good hydraulics engineer. Smile.

Ha. All that to say - "gas fluids" controls is very complex and gases themselves are very sensitive to pressure and temperature. So once again would not surprise me a bit they get cranky around freezing.

[jarca]

gnott----i cut apart a fuel pump on a old car once just to see how that worked (just a neoprene disc)----i always pictured the insides of the pulse regular looking something like that.
glad to hear others are 'curious' about how things work 


yes, my weather here can go from frigid cold (coldest i've EVER seen was -40,) often getting into sub zero then in summers we can reach 104f easily---weird living in a 'desert' at 5600 feet altitude!
(yes, i could probably cut down how much 02 i need if I moved to sea level, but family is here & that is important to me now days)

[gnott]

You are probably better off just staying put and avoiding a "change".

I was nine living in Jackson Hole, Wy (6,000') when I was shipped off to my Grandparents in Indiana (860'). I was too young to understand what was going on but I remember feeling, for about 6 months or so, like I was walking on the floor of a deep ocean.

[Unqualified medical advice.]  Smile.

I have spent a lot of time in the high desserts of Oregon, California, and Wyoming (actually prairie). (No one ever hires a geologist to go to Jamaica, and Hawaii is always taken.) Often ran into newcomers and tourists in the daytime wearing shorts and t-shirts. Always suggested a jacket before it gets too late. Sometimes they listened, sometimes not, but was always fun to see the look on their faces when the temperature nose dives.

I used to wear several layers of clothing, but after awhile just settled in to always being either too hot or too cold. Smile.

[jarca]

Gnott wrote; 
(No one ever hires a geologist to go to Jamaica, and Hawaii is always taken.)

  

It is amazing how much the temperature can drop as the sun goes down!!!!
drops of 30° is nothing and 40° is pretty common too.
today we got up to 69f but tonight is supposed to get down to 37f-----no wonder only the weeds grow good here; real plants can't take that kind of weather change!

I went out to check my pasture & grass seed is just starting to pop up here & there, but the darn tumbleweeds are over an inch tall!!!! stupid weeds