Single payer health care system

[LindaNY]

So those of you in the US with private insurance, do you really want a single payer ( socialized medicine) health care system?

Watch this. It's appalling and extremely frightening.

[morningstar]

No Linda I don't but some just see the good ads and all the shine and polish. Which is a shame. They just don't see the wolf under sheep's clothing.

[Blossom/Jackie W.]

Being a Canadian; I won't comment .

[LindaNY]

I sincerely hope it's not as bad as it seems to be.

It's outrageous to have to wait so long for diagnosis and treatment.

[spike99]

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For those of you who are wondering, "long wait times" to see a family doctor and background Specialists in Canada really is unbelievable. Many GPs are no longer taking new patients, and for the patients they do have, their normal wait times for general visit of 6-8 weeks (summer months) and 4-6 weeks (for the winter months) is normal. Yes. Normal. For a checkup, my doctor is 4-6 weeks already booked. Our GP often says to my wife and I, "book your future appointment, then get sick for that day. Otherwise, I can't squeeze you in!!!".

Due to abdomen pain for 8 consecutive months, I had to wait 4 months for a Colonoscopy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonoscopy ). For the pain in the same area, I also needed an MRI. Only reason I got an MRI under 4 months is because someone cancelled their appointment. (Person probably got frustrated of waiting and went to USA for an MRI). My wife & I were told our disabled son will need back surgery last spring. Mandatory surgery to stop his back from collapsing. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoliosis As a minimum, we need to wait 6 months "in the queue" for this mandatory work. The longer we wait, the more curving is happening in his back. Thus, the longer and deeper surgery he'll need. My uncle needed prostate surgery and his GP pulled him into a silent room and told him to visit the USA - a special clinic. He called this clinic on Wednesday, faxed his test results on Friday morning, he flew down on Monday and they did the surgery on a Tuesday. Yes, it cost my uncle $40,000 (out of his own pocket) but from test results to life saving surgery was under 7 days. His GP told him that his prostate surgery would have taken our Canadian health care "normal wait time" of 8 months. By that time, it would have been too late. My uncle would have been "past the point of no return" within 4 weeks. Morally, his doctor did save his life. But if my government found out about it, this doctor would probably have a black mark in his file. Too many black marks and his medicial license would be pulled. Sad but true...

Within the online video, I laughed at the part stating that "health care in Canada is free". Unknown to some, Canada does NOT have free health care system. Yes, their large surgeries are free. For the little things, doctors are now charging their patients. In my area, my GP doctor charges $35 to remove a wart. If you have 3 warts on your hand or foot, you get a $100 + 14% taxes bill - after the warts are frozen off. In the old days, in / out under 15 minutes and no bill at all. ok - $100 isn't much to some. Times that by 3 kids and do that every other year, that's a large chunk of dollars (out of my own pocket) during 10 years. If a Canadian doctor has to create another report (above their normal paper work), they are allowed to charge up to $50 / document. My oldest son is disabled and every year, we have to provide a doctor signed document stating he's disabled. Thus, receiving some income tax reductions (for his special needs). By new policy, our doctor can charge us $50 - for signing this special form. She says that she won't charge us for this form because he's a disabled child, and feels this kid (and us) have enough problems in life. But for her disabled adult patients, she charges them $50 - for the same signed form. In the past, a PSA test (simple blood test to check for early prostate cancer) was free. Simply go in, give a small tube of blood and 2 weeks later, your doctor called stating "good" or need more investigation. Last fall, I got a PSA test done (at my family doctor's office) and was charged $35. Yes, they are "extra billing" in this area as well...

Ok.... I don't mind paying for little things. If it must be done, it must be done. However, for every $xx dollar I pay my doctor or background labs "out of my own pocket", then allow me to subtract that 100% amount from my year end income tax payment. If my government won't pay for these tests (and special signed forms) then why are they "double billing" me? Yes, they are directly and indirectly double billing me. Doctor bills me and at end of the year, I have "zero" deductions from these extra medical charges on my income tax form. Therefore, I'm paying my government twice - for the exact same medical item.

Sorry to rant.... Doctor and Specialist wait time in Canada is unbelievable. When one does an indepth "in the real world" investigations, they will discover that Canadian Health Care is much different from 5, 10 years ago. All because there's "no competition" in the Canadian Health Care system. Therefore, they don't need to act fast and they can charge what they want. The OHIP Health Care system is the only folks in town (sort of speaking) and they know it. Sad but true.... And when they do provide to their customers, they "double bill them" in the end. Double bill them for the little things that was free 3-5-10 years ago. Sad but true!!!

Personally, I don't know which health care system is better. But I do know that "extra billing" the single low income Canadian family is wrong. This should be illegal. And making folks wait up to 4-6 weeks for a general appointment is wrong. If I did that to my customers, my boss would fire me. And making folks wait 4+ months for MRIs and if needed, life saving surgery is wrong as well. When a family doctor tells his own patients to visit the USA for immediate medical treatment, one knows (at the "real trench level)" that something is wrong with Canadian Health Care system "of today".

For those who want single payer health care system, "do be carefull what you wish for..." It might be you writing the same reply in 3-5 years from now.

Something to think about...

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[larrynz]

We have a National health system, it was very good, up to GP level it still is, the GP is not free but is subsidized, that way it stops people going for trivial reasons.
Beyond that is a mess, your GP may refer you to a specialist, you may be refused or put on a waiting list, if on a list you could be taken off the list again and have to get your GP to write in again. More and more people are buying Health Insurance, which is silly because we are all in a compulsory scheme.
The bottom line, you pay for the National Health scheme via tax then need to pay a second time for real heath care.

[cocojax]

I really believe that too many people have abused our system, and go to the hospital emergency for trivial things like sore throats etc..r we also had some greedy Dr.s double billing the system so that added to the problem.

Dr.s are over- cautious in some cases cause they are afraid of getting sued.

Mainly too many people, a lot of young adults and an influx of new people in the country who have not paid there dues, so that the baby boomer population that is now desperately in need of care cannot get it. It may sound hard core, but I think as Canadians we have to start looking after our own population first and then 3rd World Countries, it is really KIND of us as a Country to try and help other Countries with their wars and health problems, BUT LIKE ANY FAMILY YOU TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN FIRST ! Cause if we don't start taking care of us, then we won't be around to care for others. We are supposed to have a surplus of taxes, and lottery money, where is it going??? Dr.s are preferring to move to other countries ( OF COURSE AFTER THEY TRAIN HERE ) for higher pay. Why not make it mandatory after they train, they have to practice x number of years in Canada....They take on way too many patients, so they cannot do their jobs properly, and if someone needs a Dr. for more than the odd visit they won't take them on as a patient, cause they would rather QUANTITY AND NOT QUALITY. Whatever happened to the HIPPOCRATIC OATH

JMHO

[cheryl]

Wow - 4-6 weeks for a GP visit? I didn't know that actually went on. I usually get in the same day I call. I certainly hope my GP doesn't start charging for extra stuff. I've never had to do that either. It sounds like you've had a rough time of it, Spike.

[cocojax]

My GP is the same Cheryl takes 4-6 weeks for a regular visit, and sometimes you have to wait in his office for an hour or more, takes way longer if you want a physical. He charges $20.00 for a Dr.s note, for work purposes, if you forget a prescription and need a repeat, to phone or get your pharmacy to call is another $20.00. It is just crazy anymore...

[cheryl]

Wholly Ellen, I think I better count my blessings. I call in prescription renewals all the time.

[larrynz]

Dr.s are preferring to move to other countries ( OF COURSE AFTER THEY TRAIN HERE ) for higher pay. Why not make it mandatory after they train, they have to practice x number of years in Canada..
..................................................................................
Cocojax we have the same problem, we are a small country and can't compete with the money paid in some countries.
I read the bit to Marilyn about 4-6 weeks for a doctor, strange to us we wait at times a few days to see our own doctor but there is always one available if you have to see one.

[spike99]

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I can also think of lots of great things that our doctors should / could do. I'm sure lots of folks could think of better things I can do at my work as well. As a general statement, I feel the doctors treating my family on a Medical Treatment perspective are near "the top of the best list". Yes. They may have made one or two minor mistakes (like any human does) but on a consistant track record, they treat my family members really great. If they didn't, I'd fire them (sort of speaking), and get different doctor(s).

In looking at my many bad experiences (like waiting 4-6 weeks for an appointment), being extra billed, lack of "slower explained" explanations, lack of follow ups, etc. etc., I really can't blame my doctor. I "blame the system". The doctors are "over worked", the doctors are forced to take too many patients (due to amount of doctors allowed to practice in a region), etc. etc. And, the doctors aren't paid very much (compared to the old days or to other country doctors). Thus, they get trained in Canada and with high education debt, they are forced to work in higher profit countries. A few times, my GP laughing often says, "I should have become a cosmetic surgeon, moved to a lower tropical USA state, install bood transplants for 10 years and retire the rest of my life". It's obvious that she too is getting tired of other doctors working less hours, making huge dollars and living in a less weather freezing country. Yes, she's a great GP. But being human, we can tell she's "tired of the system" as well. Tired of the harsh working conditions that she is forced to work under as well.

I don't think the negative impact on my Canadian health care system is from "non Canadians" moving into my country. Yes, more of these folks seem to be waiting in GP and Emergency waiting rooms these days (I see them and you see them). But..... They pay taxes too. They pay 14% sales tax and they also pay year end income tax - just like the rest of us "born in Canada" Canadians. Being human, they deserve the same level of medical service the other Canadians get as well. If they can't get a GP in their area, their only option is to visit their hospital's Emergency rooms. If you don't have a GP and have a twisted pain in your appendix for 3 hours, what would you do? Go home or asa minimum, try to get it looked at??? I'd visit my local Emergency room as well. Sad to say but true. If I must wait 4-6 weeks to see my GP (because a new Canadian moved in), I should NOT be upset at them. I need to be upset at "the system" because another GP doctor is NOT allowed to work in my region. Government won't let another doctor do business (sort of speaking) because they feel 1 doctor in my country region is good enough. So, is it that new Canadian's fault, is it the only doctor in my region's fault or is it "the OHIP Health Care system"? For me, I blame "the system". Based on patterns of negatives in many different areas, 99% of the problems "points to the system".

Personally, I feel that my Canadian medical system is taking a beating due to being run by "Accountant bean counters" - instead of business people. If it were me, I'd rather give free PSA tests and in the long run, avoid giving very expensive prostate surgery to a patient. I'd rather give immediate MRI tests and a few months later, NOT have deeper surgery to remove brain cancer (that is much bigger later in time). My boss is a great business person. She often says.... Spend the $1 to save $100 in the future. If we have to loss $1 profit to keep that customer for life, then it was worth it in the long run. To me, "we" (or should I say, "the system") needs to start re-focusing on saving long term dollars. It isn't about trying to save the $1s here and $1s there. It's about keeping our customers alive or with less pain - by doing their tests / surgeries ASAP - so they can continue to pay 14% taxes and year end income tax - for life.

Something to think about....

.

[cocojax]

spike99 said:

.

I can also think of lots of great things that our doctors should / could do. I'm sure lots of folks could think of better things I can do at my work as well. As a general statement, I feel the doctors treating my family on a Medical Treatment perspective are near "the top of the best list". Yes. They may have made one or two minor mistakes (like any human does) but on a consistant track record, they treat my family members really great. If they didn't, I'd fire them (sort of speaking), and get different doctor(s).

In looking at my many bad experiences (like waiting 4-6 weeks for an appointment), being extra billed, lack of "slower explained" explanations, lack of follow ups, etc. etc., I really can't blame my doctor. I "blame the system". The doctors are "over worked", the doctors are forced to take too many patients (due to amount of doctors allowed to practice in a region), etc. etc. And, the doctors aren't paid very much (compared to the old days or to other country doctors). Thus, they get trained in Canada and with high education debt, they are forced to work in higher profit countries. A few times, my GP laughing often says, "I should have become a cosmetic surgeon, moved to a lower tropical USA state, install bood transplants for 10 years and retire the rest of my life". It's obvious that she too is getting tired of other doctors working less hours, making huge dollars and living in a less weather freezing country. Yes, she's a great GP. But being human, we can tell she's "tired of the system" as well. Tired of the harsh working conditions that she is forced to work under as well.

I don't think the negative impact on my Canadian health care system is from "non Canadians" moving into my country. Yes, more of these folks seem to be waiting in GP and Emergency waiting rooms these days (I see them and you see them). But..... They pay taxes too. They pay 14% sales tax and they also pay year end income tax - just like the rest of us "born in Canada" Canadians. Being human, they deserve the same level of medical service the other Canadians get as well. If they can't get a GP in their area, their only option is to visit their hospital's Emergency rooms. If you don't have a GP and have a twisted pain in your appendix for 3 hours, what would you do? Go home or asa minimum, try to get it looked at??? I'd visit my local Emergency room as well. Sad to say but true. If I must wait 4-6 weeks to see my GP (because a new Canadian moved in), I should NOT be upset at them. I need to be upset at "the system" because another GP doctor is NOT allowed to work in my region. Government won't let another doctor do business (sort of speaking) because they feel 1 doctor in my country region is good enough. So, is it that new Canadian's fault, is it the only doctor in my region's fault or is it "the OHIP Health Care system"? For me, I blame "the system". Based on patterns of negatives in many different areas, 99% of the problems "points to the system".

Personally, I feel that my Canadian medical system is taking a beating due to being run by "Accountant bean counters" - instead of business people. If it were me, I'd rather give free PSA tests and in the long run, avoid giving very expensive prostate surgery to a patient. I'd rather give immediate MRI tests and a few months later, NOT have deeper surgery to remove brain cancer (that is much bigger later in time). My boss is a great business person. She often says.... Spend the $1 to save $100 in the future. If we have to loss $1 profit to keep that customer for life, then it was worth it in the long run. To me, "we" (or should I say, "the system") needs to start re-focusing on saving long term dollars. It isn't about trying to save the $1s here and $1s there. It's about keeping our customers alive or with less pain - by doing their tests / surgeries ASAP - so they can continue to pay 14% taxes and year end income tax - for life.

Something to think about....

.

I think for sore throats and such we should go to a participating walk-in clinic,these clinics have been set up for the overflow. I am not blaming individual imigrants coming into Canada, I am saying our Government should have been prepared for this. I realize they pay taxes just like us, but they have not paid into the system as many years as we have, is this their fault, NO, I am saying that we have to keep up with the influx of people entering our country. Do I think Dr.s have taken too many people on, yes, I have been going to my Dr. for 40 years, I think I should be able to get an appointment without having to wait 4- 6 weeks, and then having to wait in the waiting room for sometimes an hour or more...could I find another Dr. at this time no, if I cannot get into my Dr. I have been going to walk-in clinics. This is not good if you have COPD or any other disease, you need care that is consistent. This is just not a situation for me personally but nationwide...

[spike99]

If a Walk-In clinic is available in one's area then by all means, do visit one - instead of the ER. In my area, there's no clinic. Nearest walk-in clinic is 3 hour drive away. In my area, one has to wait 4-6 weeks for an appointment at their GP or go the ER. Nothing between...

.

[muffin]

Some people in the states may be able to get to their doctor in a day, but I haven't been able to for several years and I don't know anyone that can. If I call my pulmo or my internist and I can't wait until they can work me in (which is 2 - 4 weeks out allways), then they tell me go to an emergency clinic or room. If you can get into yours earlier I would like the secret in doing so. I go to the doctor in 2 weeks and that appointment was made 3 weeks or more ago. Not an emergency but somethings needs tending to. Seems to get worse here all the time.

[larrynz]

By comparison we are very well off, at least with seeing the doctor.

[Deleted]

Most people in the world are not free ... nor do they wish to be free if it means their neighbors are to be free as well. What most people appear to want is an EASY MASTER and very limited freedom, and a supervisor of freedom to make sure one remains SAFE and one's neighbor remains subject to authority.

Single payer health coverage is another word for ... let the MASTER pay for the SLAVE and decide what the slave needs, when it is needed and how much he/she shall receive ....

Single payer health care ... as in NHS ... simply means the minimum of medical services for the mass of people so as to provide a maximum of benefits TO THE RULING CLASS (who have entirely different medical care anyway ... usually in the USA or in private clinics (legal or otherwise). The average citizen gets what is left over after the well placed get everything they could think of ...

The rich get treatment ... the middle class get excuses ... the working class get much shorter lives and more pain and are taught to contend with each other for what few benefits can be obtained.

But - what is important is that under the single payer plans of today, freedom of action and choice can be almost entirely disregarded.

Thus, everybody can fix blame and nobody has to make any ugly personal choices that involve that dangerous freedom thing ...

[larrynz]

rpj3, all true, lucky we have elections to stop the excesses of a dictatorship ;D

[LindaNY]

I worked in the Medical system for over 30 years and have seen many things. After College, first 13 work life years were spent working with a group of Plastic and Reconstructive surgeons in the OR with them.
Because of the high cost of malpractice insurance, most finally left the group and retired just because they could. Two are left and have gone to work for the big hospital here. They are basically "employees" and are expected to preform. Everything is paid including insurance, supplies and staff.

During and after that time I volunteered as a medic on our county ambulance. It was appalling to see just how many public assistance patients used the ambulance as a taxi and the Emergency rooms as "family doctors" for foolish things such as sore throats and ear aches.

So I fully understand where this country is going and hope to GOD I'm gone by the time socialized medicine comes into being.